Family Soul Story - Choose Life!

The Pat and Barb Verly family and their 5 children, in laws and grandkids along with many prayer warriors have been drawn together by John's cancer... sharing daily for 8 months started this blog- Family Soul Story - Our faith, family, farm and now our cancer journey called HEALING have colored and deepened our world. WE continue to share and depend on the support of our prayer warrior community, that has lowered us into the Lord's presence for His healing!

Friday, March 7, 2014

Bertha's Sympathy card

I thought they would fit well in a sympathy card I was making for Pat's Godmother, Bertha Louwagie. Today is her funeral and we were going to try to make it, but 4 calves in a row make that impossible. When I tried to print my pictures I discovered that our printer was not working and that led to one of those horrible mornings of trying to figure out computer/printer messes! We wonder why our life is so high anxiety - it is all the wires and computer language and asking you if you want this or that in language that is Greek to me! I am a mass of nerves now after hours of frustration!

One of those mystery pictures with the snow falling inside the barn! It still is cool, and a mystery to me of where it comes from and who looks at my pictures and adds falling snow? I usually add a picture of mine with a Bible verse on the front of the card, and I thought this one or the other one of Mary and Therese looking out a snowy cow and calf pair could be very meaningful for Bertha's family. Reading the Psalm for today - amazing Psalm 51! "My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn." This fits well with the humble and quiet woman Bertha was. I have heard sweet stories of how she was always willing to play games with the little ones - even lately when she was more weak and sick. That is something I would not willingly do even now! So selfless and loving she was!

Another one I thought to use - sweet one of the two little girls and the wintry cow-calf.

An icon of Our Lady with Jesus eating her chin out of LOVE in Kansas City in the old refectory. I love the light and the sentiment of Our Lady/ Mother of Heaven and earth! So fitting for Aunt Bertha, who was first of all a mother/grandmother/great-grandmother and also a farmer's wife! Motherhood was her main vocation in life after her marriage to Emil Louwagie - mom Verly's brother- just older than her of the 10 children. Quiet and smiling was a description of this gentle lady over the years. A description of Our Lady also!

Big in my hospice work is the place of walking into the sunset of our lives as we leave this world and enter the next. Aunt Bertha was on hospice the last day of her life, and I am sure that even that short time helped the family say goodbye and have peace that all was done for her to be in a good place as she left this world. Good as far as comfort and having had all her needs met from physical, spiritual and emotional. I am sure she left this world anointed and surrounded by many prayers - Pat and I were aware that she was approaching the end and were praying for her daily. This picture grabbed my heart as Our Lady stands in the snow with the sun setting behind her and the angels sitting around her feet. Life just got to crazy today to make it to the funeral, but our hearts and thoughts are with the family!

Jesus, this day in Lent with struggles and fasting we are made aware of how much we need you and depend on your LIFE/LOVE/LIGHT to be the Spirit within us giving us the strength to go forward down the narrow path carrying our Most Cherished Cross! "Fasting is a form of self-deprivation that deepens our appreciation of the longing for the food that we really need... We fast so that this Lent Christ will become our ALL." see www.magnificat.com Lord, we need to be fed by your Sacraments, Your Word, The Saints interceding for us along with Your Mother, Mary Most Holy, prayer without ceasing in the rosary and all prayer throughout our day! Jesus, bless the family of Aunt Bertha as a great LIGHT has left this world and entered the next. Jesus, we trust in YOU. Amen and Hallelujah

Three bears? No, I guess one is a cow-dog-sweet boy!

Bless-bless, Barbara Luke

St Perpetua and Felicity pray for us!

snowcat

Lead me to the Cross - Francesca Battistelli

John update... there is a sheet of ice covering Canby and school is canceled today. John was in charge over there for some things while Fr Craig is away conducting a retreat for the handmaids. John reports that it is wonderful helping Fr Craig! He is enjoying meeting the people and how happy they are when they come to visit. A wonderful touching story of how a lady awoke and responded to the Eucharist when Fr brought it to her! So powerful is our need for Jesus!

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This was taken on Easter Sunday in Colman, South Dakota about 12 years ago!

My dad had done the unthinkable - said yes to being a Deacon in Colman, South Dakota just 60 minutes from our door to their door of the rectory... they had promised to help out as parish administrator of a small town chuch and to help out in the other cluster churches. It was my parents first contact with living the farm life other than second hand through a visit here and there to our farm. Now they were immersed in farm life and loved it! I loved the fact that for 3 years I could jump in the car and go and hang out with them for an afternoon here and there! It was amazing! Soon their 3 years were at an end and we all gathered for a huge family celebration of Easter... we filled the social hall with our huge family... I am the oldest of 11 with over 30 grandkids! The wind of the Holy Spirit was howling as our family gathered in front of the church doors for a family photo... it made us smile to have the wind roaring at us with the fury that only the prairie can muster!

How I love the pictures of the kids in Big Shoes! Adorable!

What is it about the kids walking around the house in mom or dad's shoes? I think that it is a form of flattery... they like to see mom of dad in those shoes so it makes them feel like they are looking like their beloved parent of just acting big like them! I remember my 3rd daughter, Maria, was so in love with her daddy... she would crawl around the bedroom and drape his socks around her neck that she had picked up off the floor just as a token of her love for him. I have a group of pictures in the bathroom that are just of that theme... Wearing mom and dad's shoes. I think that it is about as cute as can be... and also a wonderful tribiute to a child's love and appreciation for their parnets. I have now seen my 3 grandchildren that live closeby and spent much time with us also put on mostly grandpa's shoes which are usually over by the door and walk around in them... I think that a lot of that reflects that love and appreciaion that they have for him and his loving sharing ways with them. Now a generation later I have watched now grandpa LOVE each one of those kids so specially by showering them with the time by taking them along outside or allowing them to sit in his lap and share his meal when he comes in late for a meal... The same scene that I saw with our 5 kids and the resulting love and appreciation and respect! Who knew wearing his shoes was a sign of love and devotion?!?

The absolutely amazing letter that Susan/Little Sister Hallel sent to Nancy about marriage...

Nancy was engaged to Bill Bandzuch on April 10, 2010... We are all so happy for her as she has waited long for her Catholic man to come into her life. She had stood by her values and as a result it was especially sweet and special when she joyfully accepted Bill's proposal! We all gathered in Maria and Joe's back yard to help them celebrate that afternoon minus her sister in KC... Little Sister Hallel. We called her and she spoke to each one of us and even her neice and nephews ! A month later Nancy found this letter from her sister in the mailbox. It was mother's day and she called me to read it to me over the phone. I was blown away and at first thought how crazy it was that a young girl,who had answered the call to remain chaste and be a little sister had so much insight into marriage! But when I realized that she is now the "bride of Christ" it now makes all the sense in the world! I would like to once again share this powerful and wise letter here... Nancy, Look I am writing you a letter... aren't you impressed? Well, you better be because both you and I know how often this happens. I am writing to tell you now extremely excited I am about your engagement to Bill. I have to admit, when I got the news I wasn't really shocked but that night as it sunk in during adoration and the next day during mass I was so happy. My heart overflowed with joy for you. How beautiful to know that you have found your... most cherished cross. While I have never had the experience of being married, from what I hear is that he will truly be your cross. But not your cross as human eyes look at it, as a thing to run away from, as a thing of torture but rather as that which is truly the tree of life. It is only when clinging to the cross that one can truly live, it is the source of all life and of all love. Your marriage to Bill will be this, not something to run away from when it gets hard and when it hurts, but something to hold tight to, especially when it hurts because it is in this that you will find life and love. Know that it is through your marriage that Jesus wants to show you his great love for you and also that the best example that you can give to the world of Christ's love is a marriage lived in truth. So, in other words, know that I am so happy for you and that I love you a whole lot. Know that you are in my prayers during this crazy time of wedding planning; that you may not go crazy but rather learn to love each other better and that you may both have great joy and great peace. Remember to pray for me too! God Bless, Your little Sister Hallel

Our daughters, Nancy and Little Sister Hallel/Susan, with John in Lourdes, France.

Little Sister Hallel had just taken the habit of the community of the Lamb and changed her name a few days before this taken in August of 2009... John, Nancy and I had gone to help her celebrate this huge step in her life! John had just been diagnosed with brain cancer and had just completed his second chemo and was better, so within 24 hours we decided that we would fly to France! We visited Lourdes and all bathed in the healing waters which miraculously flow from the spring where St Bernedett was told to dig in the mud! John said that the day was "very good" , and for him that is saying a lot! This past winter Pat and I were in a study group of a book written by Matthew Kelly called Rediscovering Catholicism... this paragraph on p48 is amazing and so wonderfully defends the choice of religious life but also the joys and beauty of this life! I quote: "In every age, there is a small number of men and women who are prepared to turn their backs on popular culture and personal gain to embrace heroically the life Jesus outlines in the Gospels. These people fashion Catholicism into a lifestyle, they listen attentively to the voice of God in their lives, and they passionately pursue their personal adventure of salvation. As a result, they capture the attention and fascinate the imaginations of everyone who crosses their path. Paradoxically, the modern world pities these people because it believes they are missing out on something. Never feel sorry for them. These men and women are the happiest people who ever lived. They are the saints. If the Church is to thrive in this modern era, it depends on men and women like these."

Sitting on the front porch of our home in Minneapolis - me and my friend Marge a few years after..

This was taken a few years after we met while attending welcome week at the U of M in 1970! I did not know at the time that Margie would be responsible for the rest of my life - my meeting and a year later marrying her brother, Pat... I have written many cards to her over the years telling her in every way possible that because of her I have my life. We will celebrate our 32 anniversary this summer, so she has been in my life more than not! Thank you Margie Rose/Raterra Rashana for being such a loyal and true friend... there is no doubt that you were put in my life by our loving forgiving Lord ! Your life growing up on the farm in Southwest Mn is now my life and our children's lives are blessed as a result! How I rejoice at the Lord's fingerprint on my life! Jesus I trust in You! Please bless my dear friend now and forever. Amen and Halleluia!

My sister Mary at the baptism of my daughter, Nancy Anna.. She is Godmother and my dad is baptizing

In 1982 my sister, Mary, came to help me while I was on bedrest with my second daughter... I had high blood pressure and was on bedrest, so Mary came to help me around the house with my 2 year old Ruth and help Pat milk the cows. She was a city girl like me, but fell in love with the farm and we loved having her with us! After Nancy was born on April 2 we asked Mary to be her Godmother. We realized after I was on my feet that she needed to move on, so tearfully she went up to live with my folks in TF. She eventually became a doctor's office nurse and on a blind date met her farmer, Gerry.... he was a dairy farmer in Wisconsin. They married and had a daughrer, Audrey.... When Audrey was 20 mo Mary died of Lymphoma... Gerry is now married to Cathy, who had 5 kids and her husband drowned in the river up there...

Snapping beans with the 5 klids as we are in Taylors Falls visiting my parents in the summer of 92

I was in the thick of bean harvest in my garden when I took my kids to spend some days in the summer with my parents... probably late July of 92... WE picked them and brought them along to snap at my parent's house. We have such wonderful memories of our days spent in Taylors Falls at their remodeled cape cod house up on Angel Hill. Now after 14 years of liiving on Lake Michigan in Manistique in the upper penninsula... my parents have bought a home on the St Croix River in St Croix Falls, Wi which is right across the river from Taylors... I am thrilled that now my parents will be close enough for me to go and see them for the day or for a few days much more often! I loved to go to the big lake, but so missed my parents being closer so that I could spend time with them! Thnak you Lord for this move and may they continue to be a wonderful presence in my life for years to come!

Pat's mom took this picture after milking the cows one morning shortly after we were married.

Typical old camera quality - this was after we were done milking the cows with the baby calves... with dairy calves...they are taken off of their mothers at birth so that you and I can drink the milk...they start out on a big bottle and then graduate to pails of milk. That was one of my jobs out there as well as giving each cow some protein to eat while Pat was moving down the line milking them. I also would help undo the headgate when he was done so that they could go out of the barn. Pat of the time I would sit on an upside down pail and watch him milk the cows and sometimes we would visit. I married a farmer and I found these times special to the point that when Ruth was born - I would bring her over and put her strapped in her infant seat close to the heater in the milk house... she was born Jan 4, 1980... Soon my in laws told me to bring her in the house and put her in the bed with them while I helped Pat... Ruthie got to know her grandparents really well and has early memories of waking up and seeing a certain light fixture over their bed and the warm feelings that go with snuggling with her loving grandparents morning after morning! They even took a movie of her first steps dressed in different outfits day after day that we have never seen! Got to do that someday! The early years were special for many!

Pat comes to visit me in the Cities as things slow down a bit on the farm - cross country skiing...

This picture was taken by my younger sister, Mary... she is now gone for 24 years due to cancer at the age of 28! Pat had come to visit me and we decided for him to wear one of my brother's boots and try cross country skiing for the first time! The boots were too small, but when Pat Verly is motivated to do something... nothing will prevent him! Boy, have I learned that to be a huge part of him after almost 32 years of marriage! He also likes to be rough and tumble and caused this fall to get some bodily contact and to tussle with me! Thank goodness for soft snow to fall in! The dating years were long distance and due to the demands of the farm - we dated maybe once every few weeks when he could certainly not every night or even once a week... at the busy times of the year it was even less, but Pat was very good about calling me on the phone and having long conversations about our lives... he gave me many lessons on the farm life in the middle of the nigh... when he would wake me up after he got in from work! I knew that when that phone would ring that it was my farmer! The thing about farming... similar to the Catholic Church... you never learn it all...there is always more to learn and my Patrick is very intelligent and very interested in it all!

I like to call this picture taken at our first Christmas....married 4 months....THE LOOK OF LOVE!

Her name Hallel means Joy- Halleluia.... she reflects that inner joy when she is singing...

Little Sister Hallel has shared that when others say her name they are praising God with the highest of praise and Joy! There are many Hallel psalms including the last 5 psalms - 145 thru 150 and the grand Hallels are in the center of the psalms. the word means tall in French also and Hallel being much taller than most...this is humorous to the community! As a mother I am happy for her choice to be with the community of the lamb to see her happiness and joy... her face lights up in a way that cannot be anything but genuine happiness!

Finally I leave the nest!

I loved being with my family so much that finally after I had become an nurse - 4 years of college and lived at home... got a job at Hennipen County Medical center on the Neurolgoy station... and just went along day to day at home with my family including 10 yonger siblings... One day my mom asked me if I had ever thought of getting my own place... Oh, I tought... that is maybe something I should think about. I then rented a third floor of a house just a block from my parents' home. It was great! Close to my beloved family...yet my own place!

John with Bertha at the State Fair a few years back

Bertha took reserve champion with her calf in the cow-calf division a couple times for John at the State Fair... You can always count on Bertha! 4 H was a wonderful thing for our kids... It was the one time that they learned about livestock on a day to day basis with their dad. They also learned a lot of life skills including how to present themselves in front of people... this has developed into John's future wishes for a life profession... Ag and presenting himself to large groups of people however that all comes together... Lord hear our prayer for a long and bright future for John with you always number one in his life!

Two 5 month losses - both boys born after John - buried at the cemetary

William and John would have been very close in age - about 14 months... I went in for my 5 month check up and the heartbeat couldn't be found... an ultrasound revealed that he had died... I had some scary miscahrriages, so the thought of carrying him til I "lost" him was terrifying to me. I went through a 5 month abortion procedure to deliver my son. I had a postagladin suppository inserted and went through a horrible experience with pain and chills to deliver our tiny son,William. I held him wrapped in a blanket, and Pat and I shed tears at what could have been. It was winter and the ground was frozen...we took him home in a small box and put it in the freezer.. So hard to open it and face him and have the memories and tears come flooding me again. About two years later the same thing unexplainably happened... We lost Robert the same time and way... "It looks like his cord is fatally kinked." It was earth shattering to face another loss of a son and brother for John here on this earth... WE know that we have these children to be united with someday! These and the other 4 lost along the jounrney of our "nest". I feel that they were both the best and the worst years of my life! How I prayed that the Lord would give me one more child after John so that the world would see visible truth that "no, we were't just trying for our boy and that is why we ended up with 5 children! We were open to family!" Yet I am flooded with peace and even joy to know that all our children are with us whether here on earth and in heaven! I have named each of my children in heaven... Christopher lost between Ruth and Nancy, Thomas lost when my sister Mary died of Lymphoma in 1986, Joseph lost before John, William and Robert lost at 5 mo after John, and Mary lost at 3 1/2 mo in 1994. The prayer for them of their mother is a powerful experience for me as I remember them daily and many times feel that they are up there keeping me on the straight and narrow as much as possible. All I know is that I must need a lot of help to have that small spiritual army in heaven....

John and his 4 sisters.... When asked the family he wants someday... "I want 4 girls and a boy!'

Our 9 precious grandchildren, with another one on the way

I got a call today from daughter number 3 that I needed to update my grandchildren picture - the number had doubled since... So here are the 9 together with Hallel when she visited in April. Ruth has 4 with another on the way - Simon age 8, Mary age 7, David soon to be 5, and Rose 13 months. Nancy has Augustine 2, and Bernadette 7 months. Maria has 3 children... Therese 5, David 3, and Patrick 8 months! So this is almost a complete picture except for Maria's two losses due to miscarriage, who are in heaven. We love all life we have been blessed with here and in heaven, and pray for each daily. Guardian Angels watch out for them. Jesus, we Trust in YOU.

An interesting fact about the cows and calves in the pastures... Cow trails...

These two pairs are demostrating how they all walk in the same path or trail...If you look on the other side of the hill above them you can see a cow trail that they use on that side of the pasture. When you go out and walk in the pasture... you will see these paths that are very much used to the point that they are deep and there is no grass growing in them just like a well used people trail gets to be. On a very steep hill there can be teraces of many cow trails along the side where they will go single file like these two moms with their calves following along behind... I did see some of the calves get tired of the slow pace and run ahead, but it is obvious, when you see the trails,that the cows use them for the most part to get from one place in the pasture to another. How my husband loves to see them out there in the lush grass getting fat off of the grass that grows where no crops can due to the up and down land or the creeks that run through them and are also important for the cows and calves to get the water they need just like every living creature! My husband's idea of a romantic evening is to go out on the 4 wheeler or the pickup to look at the cows and calves in the 6 different pastures that we have! The kids have fond memories of going out to look at the cows in the back of the pickup - great vacation/family time!

It doesn't get much cuter than this - Ruth Ida Rose with a forever remembered baby kitty...

The Net team stops by as they come to the end of their year of serving Catholic Youth!

Our nephew, Sam Cross, has taken a year out of his life to work on the National Evagelical Team - they are Catholic Youth in their late teens and early 20s that travel the country in a van giving retreats to youth everywhere! Their homebase in St Paul, but they have traveled from coast to coast this last year and they themselves are from many places in the country and even a girl from Netherlands! In the picture Sam is standing all the way to the left by John. He lived with us a summer and learned about the farm and was in 4 H and FFA here. He showed cattle and pigs at the county fair and then went up to the State Fair with his projects and then worked in the Miracle of Birth barn for a couple of summers. Sam is a special nephew! He also has done many TEC retreats after he said yes to our request that he make a retreat and absolutely fell in love with TEC! Now he has taken it a step further in serving on this traveling retreat team with his guitar and wonderful joyful spirit... touching many youth along with the 10 youth that are on the team with him. Just before this picture was taken... Sam had given them rides back and forth on the loader to "see" the cows and farm scenes... Sitting to the far right of the tractor in the loader bucket is a girl from Minnesota named, Sarah. We struck up a conversation in the kitchen while I was cleaning up after the meal that we had shared... She started the conversation by asking me if I had always lived in Mn... I thought that I would wow her by starting off by saying; "No, actually I was born in Boston, Mass!" Her reply; "So was I!" That was a start of the most amazing give and take between us! We share so much in common and mostly I thought that she was probably me about 40 years ago when I was a new Catholic and so in love with EVERYTHING about the Catholic Church! She shared that her family of 4 girls and one boy and both of her parents converted from Episcopal to Catholic and why would you belong anywhere but the True Church!? ! Wow! I was blown away to meet someone on this long journey I have been on that is at the same place I was at that age! All of these youth are so amazing and I hope and pray and am really confident that they have touched deeply and positively many youth on their trek across the country! I asked the girl from Netherlands about the Catholic Church in her country... I have heard that it barely exists any more and she agreed that only the old attend church and otherwise those that are Catholic like her go with their families at EAster and Christmas... her friend told her that she would do the NET as she had done ahead of her and now a young person is returning to this country without God... filled with love and knowledge of her Church - Jesus and His Mother - It was a wonderful hour and a half and gave me so much hope for the Church and how the grassroots are strong and spreading our faith far and wide! Thank you Lord for all the work that is taking place in your church and please continue to use me and all those that are listening to and answering your call! Amen and Halleluia!

John the actor and his love of the stage and being in front of people - It was a fun ride!

This was John doing the "She thinks my tractor is attractive" skit for Arts In at the county fair in 4H a few years back... It is just so fun to see him in his element and it always amazed us to see how relaxed he was up there. Not like any of the rest of us! Now he hopes to take that love of the stage and put it along with his Ag background into some type of a job for his future... It will certainly be interesting to follow along and now with a year overcoming brain cancer and all that has meant for him... it has certainly taken him to a deeper and more compassionate place... We all await what the future will bring... Thank you John for all the FUN we have had following you as you share the joy with us on stage! It has been a fun ride! Jesus we know that you are in control of John's life and have a wonderful plan just for him! Jesus we trust in You!

Oh happy day! Another fun time with John...

First with a talent show at the Catholic School doing...Oh happy day from Sister Act and then again for 4 H share the fun... Finally with chior robes that we found at the Thrift store and with his sister, Maria, and cousins, Sam and Phil Cross... we enjoy the fun at Christmas camp. John even put it on for Easter when we went to visit Maria in the monastery. We shared a meal through the enclosure and John did the entertainment for all of us by putting on a chior robe and lip sincing.... Oh happy day for all of us... it was great entertainment that was good over and over!

He who follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life. Jn 8:12

I came across this inside of a long letter that our daughter, Maria, had written daily to share her experience with us as she went from a Poor Clare Monastery in Sauk Rapids, Mn to one close to Washington DC... It was so hard to think that she could go so far away to a cloistered monastery... where we would have to go and see her there and never get a hug as she would be in the "enclosure". It was to the point of her entering and the mother superior asked her to write a letter saying that this was the right thing for her to do... she couldn't write it and was back home! We were shocked and amazed! After saying goodbye to her life... she returned and embraced it! I will never forget her out helping put the cows and calves out to pasture and saying how wonderful it was to be out there... Now that was a miracle! So often on this journey we have been weak, depressed, scared and lost... The image of Jesus picking up the weak lost lamb is so often coming to me... This is wonderful to be able to share here with all of you that are upholding us in prayer!

A miracle! We make it to France in the midst of John's brain cancer and after a brain biopsy!

One of my favorite pictures from France...Susan helping John walk through the rain down a path at Saint-Pierre. They have always had a close relationship... Susan was 3 1/2 years older than John... I lost two pregnancies between them and it was never kept from the kids... we all grieved together at the losses. Susan was thrilled with her little brother from day one. She was constantly caring for him and watching out for him. We have a family story that Susan saved John's life... I will save that for a later date to share. John discovered in France that he could walk at a normal speed leaving his walker behind and having someone under his weak side. I think that he enjoyed the closeness also. We were in France and it was totally due to prayer!

The way of the cross - Cancer strikes our 20 year old son!

John at Lourdes with his two sisters... LS Hallel in the habit she had just received as a new member of the community of the Lamb and Nancy. From the back as they support their brother it looks like he is on the cross. After the news about two months earlier that he had brain cancer and then the ataxia on his left side as a result of the biopsy they had to do to diagnose it... It certainly a cross like no other we could have ever imagined! Beyond our wildest nightmares! Just the day before we left for France he was able to get to the bathroom by himself for the first time! We could go to France to see his sister join the community, and go to Lourdes and bath in the miraculous and healing waters under the watchful care of our most Blessed Virgin Mother of God... Mary Most Holy! John truly turned from a heavy heart to one of hope at this point in the journey.

Little Sister Hallel here for Thanksgiving and spent a week with John.

A group shot over at Ruth and Paul's place... Little Sister Hallel - Susan here for a week. Took John back and forth to radiation, and we then had a family Thanksgiving up in the Cities with her other two sisters that live in ST Paul... Getting ready to head back to Kansas City. That is where she is living for the next year in the only community here in the US... Community of the Lamb... pictured are from left to right... Paul Lanoue, Ruth Lanoue, Little Sister Hallel, her dad Pat and John Verly. In front Mary with her kitty Purrrrrrs.

Family Soul Story - Choose Life!

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Friday, March 7, 2014

Bertha's Sympathy card

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Little Sister Hallel here for Thanksgiving and spent a week with John.

The two Davids...